Michelle Lee

Play is how we are introduced to the world. Kids naturally play. And it allows them to push the boundaries, challenge assumptions. Why don't we do that, as adults? We have plenty of challenges where we could use that opportunity to push the boundaries to think creatively and to learn and to grow.

Liz Gerber (host)

We are so excited to welcome Michelle Lee. She's managing director in IDEO's Play Lab where she transforms complex technical challenges into ones that center play. Michelle creates impact across industries from launching children's apps that have ruled the App Store top charts to helping design more circular sustainable systems. We can't wait to be inspired by Michelle. Thank you for joining us, Michelle!

Michelle Lee

My pleasure. I'm so excited to be on here with you both.

Liz Gerber (host)

We are too. So our favorite startup question is what's your favorite creativity tool?

Michelle Lee

My favorite creativity tool... I'm gonna say chunky big crayons, because you can't be terribly perfect with them. And it lets you just get your creativity out in a really free format. And I think when you remove any goal of perfection, it just lets ideas kind of flow. And there's also something very sensorial about them. The smell of that wax, it takes you back to early childhood, but also the sound they make when they hit the the table or the ground, but like cook sound. So there's just a lot of love about that.

Liz Gerber (host)

Oh, I love that. Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you, I'm gonna go get some right now. Okay, now we're gonna get into the meat of it, which is really talking about your career in design. And so I would love to hear more about your educational path. We know you got your Bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering and Master's in product design at Stanford. And now you're at a globally recognized firm. So that seems like a pretty linear path. But I have a sense that wasn't so linear. Is that right? And can you tell us more?

Michelle Lee

Yeah, I think very few people would look at my resume and see it as linear. So thank you for saying that. I've actually had people look at my resume and tell me it looked like a mutt. It was from a dog lover. So I take it as a term of endearment. It was definitely a winding path. I think early on, it made a lot of sense. I was really good at trying to figure out like, what are the rules what I need to get to the next level? Where should I go to school next. So it was all about, you know, getting the grades, passing the tasks, getting to a great high school getting into Stanford, going for a degree in engineering. And the degree in engineering was because I was good at math and science. I was also good at art, I love to draw, but art was the hobby and math and science were the career. So I pursued engineering, mechanical engineering, specifically, because I like to touch and feel things and see how they connect electrical chemical a little bit too abstract for me. So pursued mechanical engineering, and I was doing that for my undergrad degree. And while I was there, I took a tour of IDEO. My freshman year, that was my first introduction to this place. And I was blown away to see not only engineers at work, making things real and building, but also seeing drawings everywhere. I was like, oh, wait, I don't have to separate this into a hobby in a career, they can actually exist together. And I think I fell in love with the design at that point. But it still I mean, this was the mid to late 90s. And design wasn't a thing. It wasn't on the cover of business magazines. I have a great story of talking to David Kelly and his saying at that time that he would go into client's offices, and they would ask him what he thought of their curtains because that's what they thought design was. So definitely take yourself out of today's world, because design has changed a lot in the last couple of decades. But I took the safe route. So I stayed with mechanical engineering. And there were these really cool kids who are taking product design, they would take some of the same classes as me and engineering, but then they'd go take art and design research classes all around human values and design. So it caught my attention. And by the time I hit senior year, I went to a teacher student mixer, where I met David Kelly. And I told him I've been looking at product design this whole time, but I couldn't do it. I had to go the safe route. I did engineering. And he looked at me he said, you know what? That was the right decision at the time, because again, people didn't know what design was. But he said come back for grad school and you still want to do design take product design. For now. He was about to teach ME 115, which is human values and design. It's a very first class for undergraduates in product design. And he told me I could take the class and if I dropped out after two weeks, he'd be okay with it. So took that class definitely stayed up for more than two weeks, I think now I've been in it for like 25 years. I really fell in love with the whole discipline of product design and what it could offer. And that's how I got excited for that. But here's the twist and turn is that because I was already an engineer spent two summers in aerospace, a lot of time on CAD building commercial satellites, so that people could make calls on their cell phones. And it just wasn't for me. It wasn't where I found my joy, it is where other people find their joy. So I don't want to, you know, put it down because we all have our own areas of flow. But it wasn't for me. So when I graduated, I went into the toy industry just to take a total 180, and was a product manager because I wasn't ready to move to China, where most toy engineers are. And I did that for a couple years, then wanted to apply design to other areas, which is why I came back to grad school where I got to meet you, Liz. And that was an amazing experience and really broadened my horizons. And from there, I came to IDEO, and even from IDEO, the journey has been winding from my first project on a CAD product, through you mentioned the apps with digital design to entrepreneurship and inadvertently getting spun out of IDEO, spending a couple of years in the startup world, and then coming back to help lead the app business and then now a whole new group that is all about bringing play to our consulting work.

Liz Gerber (host)

Wow. Thank you so much for being honest about sticking with engineering, I really appreciate that. I think that's a story that that very much resonates. Michelle, we haven't connected on this. But I started off in aerospace engineering as well. So we're gonna have to, I didn't realize we had that in common. And then switch to toys. Yeah. So maybe there's some connection. But I want to get back into play. So how did you like how do you think about what is play for design mean? And how did you discover it? And how do you help other people discover it? What is it?

Michelle Lee

Yeah. So the whole design for Play group at IDEO started a little bit out of necessity, because as I mentioned, we used to do kids apps, we still have some that we're continuing to maintain, including Elmo calls, which is still at the top of the list for preschoolers. But for anyone who's been in the app business, it's not the most lucrative business, especially kids apps when you're selling $1.99 Kids apps, and they have to maintain them forever. And a lot of parents also know that they're free app alternatives out there. So we're kind of like, you know, well, what else can we do? We have some amazing talent, we have software designers, some of the first software designers when we start getting into digital design at IDEO. And this isn't necessarily the right business to be in. So we realized that we'd also learned a lot about play over the time that we had been, at that time, at toy lab. So as a toy lab, we invent toys, Lauren's helped with a lot of them, that we licensed to big toy companies. And that's something we still continue to do today. But in the last 30 years of doing that we've learned not just about kids and toys and families both learned a lot about play and realizing that play actually should be applied far beyond kids and toys. Because play is how we are introduced to the world. Kids naturally play. And it allows them to push the boundaries, challenge assumptions, try out what their role is with other people and in their interactions with a greater world in a safe space. And why don't we do that, as adults, we have plenty of challenges where we could use that opportunity to push the boundaries to think creatively and to learn and to grow. So that's where that came from. Not to mention that Brendan Boyle, who started the play lab, he has been talking about play for forever. He has taught this class out of the D school from played innovation still teaches design for play class now over at the D school. And it is all about the connection between play and creativity. Now we now work with all the different domains at IDEO, which means that we bring play to healthcare we bring it to education, to consumer products, retail, just all across the board. And it is a way for us to just kind of stretch the thinking of how people think about the future, dream about different outcomes, get out of their boxes of what they do on a day to day basis. Actually, one of the people just joined my team shared a blog post with me about Maria Montessori. And Diana pointed out how there's a way that they talk about work and play and how play transforms reality in service of self and how work transforms the self and service of the greater world. And if you can actually get work and play to come together that's when you're happiest because you're serving the world and have your place in the world but you're finding a way to morph it in a way that also serves yourself so that you're enjoying what you're doing, and you can maybe take it to further heights, and maybe even be more of yourself in the process.

Liz Gerber (host)

What's your advice for young adults who want to appear serious and professional in terms of accessing their playful self? Because I think there's sometimes a tension there, right?

Michelle Lee

Absolutely. And I don't think there's any study that shows that how serious you are corresponds with how successful you are. That's the one thing that we say around here. And that actually, you might notice that when you let yourself have a little bit, opportunity to be more free or free in your thought, you arrive at more creative solutions, you actually maybe exude more confidence, because you're able to be yourself, you are able to relate to other people in more genuine way. And so I think, if you start observing that and you understand that that's a possibility, and you try it, and you see that it works, that might kind of steer you away from being that serious person who is trying to maintain all the decorum, and give yourself a chance to play a little bit more.

Liz Gerber (host)

Michelle, do you have a concrete story of how you use play in your own life to navigate your career or think about a professional problem you might have?

Michelle Lee

Yes, really love applying play to the big challenges that are out in the world. And you mentioned earlier that one of the areas that we love to focus on is circular economy and sustainable design. I think that's a really big area that people are touching on right now. But a lot of times when we talk about those topics, we kind of go at it from a perspective of the world is burning, and a lot of doom and gloom. And I think that gets people's attention. But it's really hard to have widespread adoption, or anything that lasts for any kind of sustained amount of time when you approach it from a perspective of fear. And I think play opens it up in a new direction, it gives you a chance to think about things in a more optimistic way. And in a way when you feel like you have more agency to take control and change the future. And that's this viewpoint we've taken when we've worked with various clients to talk about sustainability and circular economy. Because I think people look at as like, oh, it's going to cost more or it's going to hurt the jobs of engineers, like what happens if we're not here making more stuff? What does it do to our bottom line in terms of selling things? And when you can go on to it and actually be like, you know, what opportunities? Does it open up? And how do we think about this in ways that you can connect to, we do a really fun activity, I give full credit to like Matt Callahan for putting together some of these activities. But they created these monsters that are the world of the linear economy and things like the monstrous hybrid, that is a fusion of all these different materials that can't be separated. And so we'll present characters like that, that kind of breaks the barriers where people stop thinking about their day to day constraints, and can dream a little bit and then start applying some of the concepts that we're sharing with them to figure out what how would you actually combat the monstrous hybrid? What would that look like? And that abstraction from the constraints and the reality that they face every day, gives them a chance to breathe a little bit and to think about it in a new way.

Liz Gerber (host)

It's really interesting to hear you talk about the the connection between play and optimism, and how those they support each other. Even in a play situation that's maybe fantasy and aggressive, there's still a sense of potential, which is really interesting. Thank you for sharing that. So you've had a really long and illustrious career. And I'd love to hear from you about something surprising that's happened, or something that you've learned, because we're constantly learning in your career. So far, maybe it's a career defining moment. Maybe it's something that a failure or a learning opportunity. Would love to hear what are some of those key points in your career.

Michelle Lee

Yeah, I think it really gets to the power of design and how I think getting into this career. Originally, you think about design, and oh, all the products and services and experiences that will make, but you can really design anything. And I think designing a career is actually a really big part of this. And as I mentioned before, I think starting off when I was young, life seemed really linear, like you had to like, complete step one, and you get to step two. And there's almost a playbook for how you get to success. And as I've gotten older, I've just realized that the twists and turns are what make life really interesting and help you find the career that makes sense for you. And so, the ability to really do, what excites you and what you find joy in and then really taking note of that and being reflective also noting what you don't want to do, which, I had lots of moments like that too.

Liz Gerber (host)

Can you share any of them when you realized you were maybe in a meeting or somewhere? And you thought I'm not really that interested in what's going on?

Michelle Lee

Yeah. Oh, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, those early, those early experiences interning in aerospace when I was sitting in front of a CAD machine and watching a bar slowly make its way across as a satellite model loaded, yeah, I think be able to understand like, what is it that that really gets you excited, was not the same as what will get someone else excited, knowing that you don't have to follow convention of how other people have gotten to the jobs that you want, knowing that the job you'll hold in the future might not even exist, when you're thinking about what that job might be. Later on. There was no designed for play studio, there was no manager and director of play when I was in school, but looking back, I feel like I'm really well equipped for this job. Because of those weird twists and turns, I've taken through engineering to understand how things are made through toy design to be really deep and play, being in consulting to know what that's like across many different fields, and then be able to pull those together and to play consulting. So, yeah, I think that's the biggest discovery I've had is just, you kind of think about what you are good at and what you enjoy doing. It'll take you to some interesting places, and you can design your life as well as designing products and services.

Liz Gerber (host)

What's one thing that you're really excited about at work today that you're really nerding out on? And just get you up in the morning?

Michelle Lee

Yes, so one thing I love is making connections and building up relationships. And I think this is also just a sign of getting older that I do know more people randomly all over the place. And I am starting to make connections between all the different worlds that I've stepped foot in. And at IDEO, as you can imagine, there's a lot of different worlds because our typical way of doing work is one on one with one client at a time on consulting projects. And so one of the newest projects I've been working on is an open innovation challenge. And it's all around responsible digital design. And it is one where Riot Games is our lead sponsor, but we've also brought in Sesame Workshop, and then some other exciting partners that we're in the process of signing a lot of paperwork with. But it is bringing people together across policy, education, mental health, the gaming industry, children's media, and saying, not one person can change the path of responsible digital design, like we really need to break down the silos and bring people together in interesting ways. And it is looking at who are the potential partners who can help fund this who has the thought leadership or the principles and frameworks or bring into this to help move this conversation along. And it's just been really invigorating to find new ways to work with clients to bring them together so that we're not working with them separately, but together, and to see how we can generate excitement. And the next stage we open up this challenge is inviting everyone who would like to make a difference in this role to come in and take part.

Liz Gerber (host)

Oh, that is so cool. So that that's a great transition to next question, which is, what do you think the future of of design is? Is this? Is this the future? Are we all working on problems together? Across industries? Are we? what's happening? What's your prediction?

Michelle Lee

I hope so there are so many big challenges that are out there everything from Circular Economy to responsible digital design to mental health, and they're not ones that we can take on on our own. And, and I was really inspired at the beginning of the pandemic, because I was having conversations with PBS Kids and Sesame Workshop, and they were worried about what the impact of people having to go do remote learning was going to have on kids and on families and on teachers. And meanwhile, I was talking to AARP, the American Association of Retired Persons, they are wondering about social isolation and how that would affect the mental health of aging population. And yes, different ends of the age spectrum, but so much they could learn from each other, so much we can do to bring those two groups together. And that's what got me excited and started me on the whole path of open innovation and how might we rethink how we approach design? So yes, I hope that that will be part of how we attack challenges in the future is together, sharing our wisdom and working together towards a better future. And hopefully, play will be a big part of that. Because plays are a really great way to bring people together. And as you said, to really drive the optimism that you need if you're going to do something different.

Liz Gerber (host)

Oh, that's so inspiring. So we'll close out with this question, which is you've offered many pieces of advice, but is there any more advice or maybe perhaps an unexpected piece of advice that you would have for people wanting to enter your field? Something to think about?

Michelle Lee

Yeah, I would say challenge all assumptions that are out there. Like don't assume that, again, there's only one path I can leave you with. One last story is that when I was trying to get into the toy industry, one of the places I applied was Fisher Price. And they might change their practices now but to the point they only really hired people out of undergrad if they were industrial designers. And so they had this requirement that everyone who applied submit a portfolio, I wasn't mechanical engineer. So at first I was like, how am I supposed submit a portfolio that competes with people who have industrial design degrees. So I just made my own, I submitted a portfolio that had electrical diagrams, that had jack-o'-lanterns I'd made, birthday cakes, I had done, robots that I'd done in engineering classes, it was really all over the place. And I will never forget getting a call from their talent team. Just saying, We got your portfolio, we'd like you to come in for an interview, because we've never seen one like it before. And we need you to come here and explain it to us. And I showed up, and there are 20 people in the room from every division, from like baby toys to car seats, and everywhere in between. And it was because I stood out, and it was different. And they hadn't seen anything like it. But it was something that piqued their curiosity, and off of that storytelling, like know why you need to be there, why it makes sense for you to be there and be able to tell your story. Because that's the next step to close the gap for them. Catch their attention, and then help them understand why it makes sense, and why you might not match the job description they put out there. But why the things that you have sort of been in that job description, while actually make their place of work a better place to be?

Liz Gerber (host)

Oh, I love that. I love them, telling them what should be in their job description is brilliant. So Michelle, I'm sure people are gonna want to follow you after this. So how how can they best follow you? How can they figure out what you're doing next? And, and be inspired?

Michelle Lee

Yeah. Okay, so a couple things like for websites, definitely check out ideo.com. Right now, we recently revved it. And there is a whole messaging that's on it right now about how this work can't wait. And it is highlighting the work that we think is really important to tackle right now. Everything from education, to circular economy, to just reinventing even cities and how we function as a society. So if you want to be inspired, take a look at that page. ideoplaylab.com will kind of direct you to another big questions page that really highlights some of the work we do specifically in play, and also has a few of the talks and articles we've written about play. So if you're curious specifically about playing design, go there. And then, in terms of social media, probably the best place would be LinkedIn just because I'm not really great at keeping up like Twitter, Instagram or anything else. But that's where I post most of some of the podcasts or other talks that I've been doing. So that's a great place if you just need to listen to something while I'm drawing or doing something else. That might give you some some inspiring pieces of information.

Liz Gerber (host)

Michelle, thank you so much. This has been absolutely incredible loved all the stories, the honesty, the authenticity. Thank you very much.